New to dating Muslim Arab - need help

[noelie]

Salam! سلام

Hi everyone. I don't know if I'm in the right forum but here goes.

I'm 42 (next week) and I recently started dating a gay Muslim Arab guy of Palestinian descent.

He's 28 and he's beautiful. My first time to date an Arab guy.

I've looked up some Arabic phrases online to show him that I'm making an effort but there are some problems coming up already.

Firstly, as far as I can tell he suffers from depression - so my first question: What is the cultural response in most Arabic countries to depression? Do they acknowledge it? Do they see it as a proper medical condition? What are their attitudes to it?

His depression seems to stem from the very fact of being a gay Muslim Arab - is there anything I can do to help him through this? He's depressed because he's never had an LTR and he feels that he's never known real love and that he's been used and abused - he says that this was his experience growing up in Kuwait and Jordan as a gay Muslim Arab. He has terrible issues regarding his self image - he doesn't think he's good looking, he hates his brown eyes and his thick black hair (which I love) and I don't know how to convince him otherwise.

What do you think?

I've suffered from depression all my life so I recognise the signs but I've got it under control whereas he says that his culture is inherently pessimistic so I shouldn't worry.

Finally, he's determined to come out. He wants to go to gay bars and experience the 'gay scene' where we live (which isn't much TBH). I'm worried that he's going down a one way road here. He's only got a limited (one year) work permit and if he 'comes out' he may eventually find himself back in Jordan with some serious problems to face. Again, what do you think of his situation?

I would really appreciate your (sincere and mature) responses to this post.

Shokran jazeelan شكرا (جزيلا)

noelie.

[noelie]

**BUMP**

No one?

[bistallion]

Hi,
to give you an answer I need some more informations:
Did I understand you right that he is now in your homecountry? As your guest? That means he HAS to go back after a few months to jordan?

[noelie]

Hi bistallion and thank you for your reply,

Yes, he is in my country. He actually has a work permit for two years. The first year the permit belongs to the employer and the second year he is free to move to a new employer. After that he is 'in the lap of the gods' so to speak.

I'm afraid things aren't working out between us right now - he has a lot of issues: cultural, religious, family etc. It would seem that his older brother (who also lives here but a couple of hundred miles away) has charge over him and is constantly calling and texting him to see where he is and who he's with etc. The older brother has to approve of where he lives and who he associates with.

He wants to leave Jordan/Palestine behind and come out as gay but refuses to seek asylum saying that the stigma of doing that is too much.

I'm already at my wit's end as he seems paralysed by fear and indecision. He thinks if he can get to London that that will solve all his problems for some reason.

noelie.

[rfbacharac]

You are evidently a good man with a loving, compassionate heart - and it sounds like your handsome friend is a good, though understandably conflicted man who would like to have a different life from what he has had in his past. I can tell you from personal experience - you may feel you are in a position where you can give him the sort of life he wants ... but it will not work that way. There is a wonderful saying which goes something like "if you love something ... let it go. If it loves you equally, it will return to you. If it didn't love you, it will not return - in which case you then know the truth, and you are better off for it". While living in Germany some years ago, I tried to help someone (an American) and very nearly was bankrupted and ruined in the process.

My advice to you is to (1) Be certain that what exists between the two of you is love, rather than "usefulness" to the one, and one sided love/lust to the other. (2) Protect your finances and do not get into the habit of constantly giving money and presents as a means to "make him happy". (3) Know that what is "broken" in your friends life - YOU can not fix, and you should not try. If HE is "broken" - you will not be able to "fix" him. You should, I think, limit your "help" - to making sure that he knows you love and care for him - and will try to be emotionally supportive of him as HE tries to make his life the life that he wants. If he doesn't do it himself, though - it will have no lasting and constructive meaning TO HIM. He will have to construct his new life brick by brick, from the ground up (so to speak) ... and if you try to speed up the process, and give him everything prematurely - and all at once, it will not have been "his" creation, so he will have nothing "invested" in it. It must be HIS ! You can't (successfully) give it to him, you can't "fix" him, or his life, and you can't MAKE him happy. He has to achieve those things for his life by doing whatever it takes to "get there" ... and then maybe he will be able to SHARE them with you.

If he has it in his head that London is where he can achieve the life he desires - I don't think anything will change that but him. He may even have to go there and find out for himself - and you have to be willing to let go (knowing that if he loves you, he will come back to you). London does indeed have a huge number of residents of Middle Eastern origins - but that can also be a double edged sword for him ... cutting both ways. No doubt there will be other gay Muslims ... but more pressingly, there will be more "straight" Muslim cultural presence (and the associated "pressure" to conform to "straight" Muslim cultural expectations).

I love, and greatly admire and respect the Arabs - so I will wish you the best of luck ... but I will wish your friend the most luck as he tries to figure out, and then achieve the life he desires. With my best wishes, rfb

[Murat]

Noellie. I have gone through all that you are going through with my partner. You have to understand and accept one thing if your relationship is to survive. For him, as for all Arabs, the family is everything. Little is done socially outside the family. If he were to come out and lose his family in the proccess he will have nothing. You like me will say that he has you. But what if your relationship breaks down. He is left without his family. He cannot return home so he is left alone. My partner's brother used to have the same hold over my partner as yours. It has taken a decade to losen it. There is a hrarchy in the family, the younger brothers have to respect their elder brothers and accept a degree of control neither you or I will would tolerate. In the end my partner chose me over the dictates of his brother but it was a long and difficult path to his finally coming out to his brother. It took 12 years! He is right when he says that he would be better of in London because there are gay Arabs from all parts of the arab world here and they do meet and support each other so he would feel less isolated. There are no solutions. You have to work it through but please do not ask him to come out or to seek asylum based on his sexuality (I tried that path. It did not work). The consequences for him are too great to contemplete. If he ever does it will be when he is ready. I sometimes ask myself whether had I known all te grief that following developing a relationship with someone from Iraq would I have ever enetered into it. Truth is I had no choice. I loved him then and still do. So you must yourself decide whether going on is going to be worth the pain and the grief that will follow. All I can say is that if you do manage to work through it you will experience love in its truest form.

[noelie]

rfbacharac and Murat - thank you both.

We've pretty much finished.

Things got really intense, he was crying a lot about his life to me, and sending me love song videos on YouTube, and at one point he told me that a Moroccan palm reader he met by the Dead Sea told him that he would die in his 30s and he's convinced that he will.

The guy is lovely in so many ways but he is far too conflicted for me to deal with and I totally agree with you rfbacharac- I don't want to be his saviour and while I do believe that I could be a force for good in his life he has to see what needs to be done himself.

I felt that he wasn't being honest with me and that he was controlling his environment in a way that would be damaging to me if I stayed so we've parted ways. I told him that I would be there for him when he was ready (ready to be honest with himself and me) and when he'd stop playing games. He, of course, doesn't think he's being dishonest or that he's playing games and maybe I used the wrong terminology but that's the way it appears to me.

I hear you Murat - I don't think he is ready to make any big decisions yet. I think he's only just started this process of 'finding himself' and he's not yet equipped with the emotional intelligence to make any decisive steps in his life.

He's a gorgeous guy in many ways with a great deal of love to give but he has psychological issues to deal with on top of his cultural and religious issues and as much as I'd like to help him I'm not equipped to do it (for both of us) even if I am willing to try. He wants me to carry his burdens and to sign up to the responsibilities of a relationship but he only wants a tentative friendship on his part right now and I don't feel that would be fair to me and ultimately it would be unfair to him as I would become resentful being used in that manner.

Thanks again for your time and replies and I'm sorry this thread has ended so negatively.

noelie

[Murat]

I am sorry to hear that you have parted. There does appear to have been a divide between your view of what is needed for a relationship to work and his. I was fortunate because I am Turkish so culturaly there was a bridge. Even now after 15 years somethings happen in his family that I simply do not understand. Ultimately he has to make some kind of committment, for many gay arabs it is extremely difficult to to commit to something which could have diangerous consequences for them. He should consider moving to London where he will find places where he can meet other gay arabs and get support. If he wants to know where let me know and I'll send you a private message. I hope in 2009 you find happiness and that the saddeness of its first few days is merely a prelude to better thngs

[noelie]

You're very kind Murat. To be honest Murat, I'm tired of being the 'good guy', the guy who others lean on for advice and to tell their problems too. I'm tired of going to bed alone and this guy started out full on with kissing and sex and whatnot but then wanted to cry on my shoulder about his life. I'm able to do that but when it transpires that that's all he wants me for then I have to reconsider. I have plenty of friends, and I have plenty of friends who have problems and I don't need another one, I need a lover. I told him all that. I probably sound harsh now but he didn't seem to understand that he had raised my hopes that I was starting off on a relationship and not as someone's crutch. He just sent me a text message wishing me a happy birthday (the 3rd of January) and saying he won't bother me any more. He really is a lovely guy and I'm genuinely upset that it ended so abruptly and badly. I will try to stay in touch with him and who knows, maybe we'll work something out? I have this thread bookmarked so if he does go to London I'll PM you for those details. I really want only the best for him.

شكرا (جزيلا)

Noel.

[Scott747]

Noel:

It's been a couple of weeks since I've checked in here and I was pained to read the posts. Pained because I hate to see any relationship - budding or otherwise - go badly and pained because I am in a long distance relationship with a gay Arab. Many of the things you said about your Arab friend and about the advice you were given are very similar to what I've experienced. My guy is from the UAE and we've known each other for almost four years now. I travel a lot on business and have made Abu Dhabi a hub which makes it convenient and he has relatives here in the US so we've managed to see each other three or four times a year. He's coming to the US for a masters degree although he won't be here in DC. But I did want to let you know that it is very difficult for Arabs who are truly gay as opposed to those who like to have sex with men once in a while. And the words about family are very very true. My guy has an unusual family situation - his mother is not from the UAE and although the youngest wife his father doesn't live with her. As for our future -- Who Knows? He is very much in love with me and I with him. He did have a longer term relationship with a fellow Arab before he met me that ended badly and hurt him a great deal. He is 28, very handsome, loves to joke and emotionally fairly even. He does get depressed though but he also has his own wedding business as well as working for the government and has a number of good (non-gay) friends. He is somewhat of a social outcast because of his "mixed blood" but it's also part of the reason that he so good looking. We are following what we call the "Brokeback Mountain" way of life and while it isn't all that great and wonderful I wouldn't change it for the world. I am older than you are and I can tell you that this wonderful young man in my life has made me feel like a kid again. Maybe it's because we aren't together that we get along so well when we are. But leaving is always painful. Maybe one day it will be different but even if it never happens I'm still grateful for whatever time we have together. So I guess I just wanted to let you know that it is possible for two people from such different cultures to find love.

Hope things work out for you.

Scott

[noelie]

Thank you Scott for your encouraging words. We have been in contact via text message a few times this last weekend and it would seem that we are trying to re-evaluate and re-align ourselves so as to start afresh. He really is a lovely guy and I know that I've hurt him in my reaction (I seem to be making a lot of cultural faux pas on top of everything) and yes, he made me feel like a kid again as you said of your friend. I will keep you all updated as to what is happening and thank you all again for your time.

[Scott747]

Noel: (if that's correct)

Good luck - just take things easy and slowly.

Scott

[noelie]

Just to give you an update. We're in regular contact every day by email and text messages and we seem to be becoming good friends. We had lunch last Saturday and spent a few hours together talking and walking but we're not romantically attached in any way. He has come to the realization that there are serious cultural differences between Ireland and the Middle East after getting hurt by several guys. He's on a sex date tonight (we don't use that term here, I learnt it from him and saw it here) and I wish him well. As I said to him in one email 'I'd rather have him in my life without being in a romantic relationship (just friends) than not to have him in my life at all' and for now that makes us both happy.

I've updated my profile and added some pics BTW ;)

I'm still looking for a hot young Arab guy (they melt my heart every time). :o

[Scott747]

Noel: See you profile page for new e-mail.

[noelie]

Just a quick update and thanks to all who replied.

My friend has moved to new accommodation and he's finally happy. It would seem that most of his stress and worries were due to where he was living but he was putting on a brave face about that while falling apart elsewhere. He's settled down and he's working hard in the same job. We hang out together for coffee and shopping but no more and I'm okay with that. He'll be back in Jordan next month to visit his family and he's looking forward to that so all's well that ends well methinks.

[Scott747]

NOel: Hope the both of you are satisfied and maybe something can work out in the future. Please keep us posted.

Best Wishes, Scott

Just a quick update and thanks to all who replied.

My friend has moved to new accommodation and he's finally happy. It would seem that most of his stress and worries were due to where he was living but he was putting on a brave face about that while falling apart elsewhere. He's settled down and he's working hard in the same job. We hang out together for coffee and shopping but no more and I'm okay with that. He'll be back in Jordan next month to visit his family and he's looking forward to that so all's well that ends well methinks.